So I'm watching this town hall...

**NotSoSilentBob** · August 14th, 2009, 02:09 AM

What The Health Care Bill Actually Says | Sweetness & Light

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/...12/town_halls/

**R13** · August 14th, 2009, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by NotSoSilentBob

I suppose the busing of ACORN and SEIU members is perfectly OK.

Arlen Specter townhall meeting today (pics, videos; 56K get comfortable) - AR15.COM

Obama bussed them in?

**NotSoSilentBob** · August 14th, 2009, 02:21 AM

Common Sense 2020 Blog Archive ObamaCare: The Trojan Horse Revealed

**NotSoSilentBob** · August 14th, 2009, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by R13

Obama bussed them in?

**R13** · August 14th, 2009, 03:04 AM

Pretty confused, didn't seen anything in the vids that identified them as ACORN or SEIU?

**simple man** · August 14th, 2009, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by NotSoSilentBob

Common Sense 2020 Blog Archive ObamaCare: The Trojan Horse Revealed

How much of this would have already been covered if Bush had gotten away with his plan to make the ill-legals , legal?

Both parties are pushing the same thing, most people aren't smart enough to see it.

**CoeburnCane** · August 14th, 2009, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gotch

Yeah, I know "he" was for a single payer, but then "he" flip-flopped like he has on several other issues.

Gotch--is it really a "flip-flop" when he said he was for single payer, but then realized once he got into office that single payer probably wasn't going to pass, and put it to the side?

To me, that's a decision made based off of the facts in front of him, and choosing to do the right thing given the scenario. It's not like he trumped up evidence to get us into a single payer plan, just to fit his agenda even though it wasn't the right thing to do. (Note, you can take that last sentence and replace "a single payer plan" with "the Iraq War" and have an example of what Bush actually ended up doing.)

Originally Posted by Gotch

Next, I doubt that racism plays any real measurable degree in this debate. There are always a few on any side that it does influence (either way) but I think this is more about issues or at least perceived issues.

I'll simply disagree here. The hate with the swastikas being spray painted on buildings is a clear sign of racial discourse, and I think the hatred exposed by wanting to "water the tree of liberty" while packing a gun suggests that there's people out there that want to kill this president, not because of his policies--but because of something else--and that something else can easily be assumed to be his race.

It should be about the issues, but I think some of the ones just looking for an excuse to get back at this "uppity negro" for being elected president are ready to come out in full force w/all the hate going around in general. It's just very tangible to me that that exists amongst some--you can just tell.

**TheBeast** · August 14th, 2009, 10:01 AM

is it really a "flip-flop" when he said he was for single payer, but then realized once he got into office that single payer probably wasn't going to pass, and put it to the side?

Uh yeah, that sort of defines flip-flop. So your saying he still wants a single payer system he is just trying to figure out how to disguise it and implement it.

and I think the hatred exposed by wanting to "water the tree of liberty" while packing a gun suggests that there's people out there that want to kill this president, not because of his policies--but because of something else--and that something else can easily be assumed to be his race.

Where does race come into the quote "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants and patriots"? I guess tyrant and patriot are slang for blacks. You are just wanting anything that is against Chairman Maobama to be racially motivated, whens your next black panther meeting?

**CoeburnCane** · August 14th, 2009, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by TheBeast

So your saying he still wants a single payer system he is just trying to figure out how to disguise it and implement it.

Not at all. I'm saying he looked at all the facts in front of him, the entire scenario of this debate, and saw that single payer likely wouldn't pass, no matter how much he promised it during the campaign or believes in it as a solid policy. So it's tabled. Maybe it can be revisited in the future if/when the scenario arises where it's the way to go, but he simply saw for now that it's not possible. You want to characterize it as him trying to "sneak" it in through the back door, I simply think he sees it's not possible right now and he wants to focus on what reform CAN be done given the way things are currently. Why focus on something that can't be done that's gonna **** off everybody when you can find common ground on meaningful reform that can pass and help people out? Isn't helping people out the main goal in making this reform into law?

Originally Posted by TheBeast

Where does race come into the quote "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants and patriots"?

When it's a white dude packin' heat holding the sign outside of the president's town hall, and the message he clearly wants to convey is to "water the tree of liberty" with that black president's blood. You may not feel that way, and others may not--but it's pretty obvious that's what message he meant to convey. It's a shame and b@stardization of that credo from the revolutionary era.

Originally Posted by TheBeast

I guess tyrant and patriot are slang for blacks.

Never said that, not even close.

Originally Posted by TheBeast

You are just wanting anything that is against Chairman Maobama to be racially motivated, whens your next black panther meeting?

Do you recall how albino-esque my skin tone is?

I just don't like racism against any race, including whites. I don't like a bunch of GOP members (who happen to be white) angrily organizing to "rise up" and reclaim America via revolution against a black president. What else is that supposed to be? Sounds like someone would love to plan a lynching to me.

And then we have THIS from yesterday. "Death to Obama/Michelle & her two stupid kids"...wonder what those 4 people mentioned have in common? They're all family, sure. They all live in the White House...OK. But the more obvious/polarizing/likely thing about the Obama family is that they're black. And the man holding the sign happens to be? You guessed it...white.

I hope you and some others against Obama's policies can come out on here and at least agree that this is sickening, and for the reason that it's hate based likely in racism.

**TheBeast** · August 14th, 2009, 10:45 AM

Now to answer Biggin on his question what do you think should be done.

I agree with Stripes that the system in the Netherlands (Dutch) is the model we should be looking at.

there are 14 private insurance companies in the Netherlands and several related subsidiaries. This means that individuals can shop for insurance?a process made all the easier by a Dutch government web site ?where consumers can compare all insurers with respect to price, services, consumer satisfaction, and supplemental insurance, and compare hospitals on different sets of performance indicators.? Thus, much to the delight of consumer-minded health care reformers, the Netherlands has essentially institutionalized comparison shopping.

Insurers Must Take All Applicants: Individuals Must Buy Insurance

But it would be wrong to say that the Dutch health care system is some sort of conservative utopia where the invisible hand of the market reigns. Just as in Dr. Emanuel?s plan, insurers operate under many regulations and restrictions. Most importantly, ?they are legally obliged to accept each applicant for basic insurance? and they cannot charge someone more because of pre-existing conditions.

You can read up on it more Here